Tim Elliot wrote: “Those really were "events”.“
And don’t forget the James Bond movies that opened in the 60’s around Christmas at (IMHO) the best movie theatre in Toronto….and Canada…the Odeon Carlton (called the"Showplace of the Dominion” when it opened in 1948). The line ups were incredible. The coloured light changes and fantastic stage curtains in the 2500 seat theatre, the cheers and clapping when the organ came up out of the floor with the great Colin Corbett.
When the wreckers ball took care of the Carlton, it also took care of a good part of the great movie experiences Toronto had to offer back then.
I would also liked to have seen how the Rivoli presented its movies back in those days. Sounds like it was quite an experience too.
Box Office Bill wrote: “but the angle of projection from the upper balcony was so sharp that the moving fabric were cast deep shadows over the screen."
Bill: The projection room at the Roxy was set in the front of the balcony because Roxy himself thought a "head-on” throw with no angle gave a better picture quality. Could you clarify? Was there another projection booth?
I chatted a while ago with a former New York projection equipment installer who said this “head-on” throw in the Roxy caused shadows. He also said it caused ghosting inside the lens which sometimes affected what was seen on the screen.
Was this contour arrangement better than the original huge curtains? I always thought there was nothing like seeing a big curtain the width of the stage, opening and closing a movie.
I have exterior and interior photos of the Dorchester to add to this listing but the website is still not accepting any more photos for a while. I’ll add them as soon as the “Add photo” function is working again.
mjc (Martin Chapman).
Vito wrote: “In fact, Mr.Newman did not write the CinemaScope extension until a few months later. Does anyone remember which film was the first to present the Fox Fanfare with the CinemaScope extension? Come on now Warren, I know you know the answer to this one.”
OK Vito……..I can’t wait for Warren to reply. The suspense is killing me.
Was the first Fox fanfare with the extension “River of No Return”? And was it written by Alfred Newman or Lionel Newman?
I would have liked to have seen more details and photo’s in Ben Hall’s book about the projection booth at the Roxy. It was located in the front of the balcony, eliminating the long throw that resulted from booths that were over the top of the rear balcony.
Maybe Vito or others could weigh in here. What did the projectionists think of this arrangement, which Hall calls an “innovation”? I was in contact with a former theatre chain technician who thought the “head on” projection at the Roxy created other problems such as ghosting from the lenses.
Also Hall refers to a staff of 16 projectionists on various shifts which was unheard of anywhere else. How does that compare to RCMH? Was the movie presentation more complex at the Roxy?
I would have liked to have seen more details and photo’s in Ben Hall’s book about the projection booth at the Roxy. It was located in the front of the balcony, eliminating the long throw that resulted from booths that were over the top of the rear balcony.
Maybe Vito or others could weigh in here. What did the projectionists think of this arrangement, which Hall calls an “innovation”? I was in contact with a former theatre chain technician who thought the “head on” projection at the Roxy created other problems such as ghosting from the lenses.
Also Hall refers to a staff of 16 projectionists on various shifts which was unheard of anywhere else. How does that compare to RCMH? Was the movie presentation more complex at the Roxy?
I would like to add a brief word of praise for the projectionists who had to show the same movie for more than a year.
In one theatre where “South Pacific” played for months, I remember watching the projectionists using the dialogue, not the cue dots, for some of the changeovers to give themselves a challenge! Other than the overture and intermission, it was likely a long shift.
Mark:I checked out the sites you have mentioned.Maybe these comments should be on the Granada site but neither of the theatres are what I remember as the Downtown.
The next time I am in the Hamilton area I will check the clippings file in the Library on the Downtown/Granada to make sure it is what I remember as the Downtown. I want to make sure my mind is still intact.
I posted a couple of photos of the Fox, Detroit that I took about 4 years ago on the Cinephoto UK website. One is of the lobby and the other shows part of the auditorium exterior:
I also took a couple of interior photo’s that don’t reproduce too well. I was almost thrown out of the place for taking them but what the heck…it was worth the aggravation to have my own pictures!
The Detroit Fox is a marvel to see. I make a point of visiting there from Canada once every year or so just to be overwhelmed.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I don’t think the Atlantic City Convention Hall could be classed as theatre for the purposes of Cinema Treasures. It is a conventional hall with a stage. The Chicago Auditorium is more of a concert hall, like the old Massey Hall in Toronto. But neither one of these buildings would qualify for inclusion on Cinema Treasures as classic movie theatres. I brought up the Shrine Auditorium as a gray-area case simply because it is a true theatre which has showed movies….but was never primarily a movie theatre.
Mark: You are correct re the history of the Grand Opera House/Granada/Downtown. I was in contact with a librarian at the Hamilton Public Library. I was not aware of the history of the Downtown back in 1961 and did not see any reference to it under that name in the Granada listing.
The Tivoli theatre opened in 1908 in the carriage factory which was built in 1875. When the Princess Theatre, part of the same site, was closed in 1923 it became part of the lobby of the Tivoli. The front of the Tivoli today is the old front of the carriage factory.
This information comes from an August 20/2004 report from the city’s Planning and Development Dept.
The Princess was also the Wonderland in 1908, the Colonial from 1910-1912 and the Princess from 1913-1923.This information comes from a history of the Tivoli contained in a 2004 City By-law to demolish the old carriage factory portion of the Tivoli Theatre site.
Interesting to note that the Lyric/Century theatre was the largest in Hamilton with over 2000 seats when it opened in 1913 and the first in Canada with year round air conditioning when it was re-modeled in 1940.
Mark: Good work…according to Enright’s listing the Downtown seated around 860. I thought it was a little bigger than that but its been over 40 years. I do remember it was quite stark inside, definately not an opera house interior. There may have been a balcony which was closed off when I went there. It was north of King…..not south as I said earlier.
I think we still need to fix the correct names and the address for the record. The Downtown was definately not next to the Tivoli. It would be nice to get everything straightened away…..future theatre buffs will thank us!
The plot thickens. Mike Rivest’s site, Enrights Ontario theatre sites and Cinema Tour all list the Downtown. If it was the Granada or Savoy (it could have been either) the demolition dates don’t jibe. I was in the Downtown in 1961. It was a tall dark brick building on a corner not far from where York Boulevard joins James St South. It definately was not next to the Tivoli. Maybe you could check with the Hamilton Public Library clipping section. I tried through the net but had no luck.
I also believe the Grand Opera House was closer to the downtown area on Gore Street and not next to the Tivoli but I could be wrong.
Jim: with respect….. I would like to make the case that the Shrine Auditorium is definately a theatre, unlike the Atlantic City Convention Hall. The Shrine Auditorium, despite its name, is a conventional theatre with a large balcony, that has been used since 1920 for movies, opera, stage and TV shows, concerts etc. It may not have been solely a classic movie theatre but is still advertised as North America’s largest theatre. I think the name “auditorium” confuses the issue. Perhaps they should have called it the Shrine Theatre. The Shrine headquarters and convention hall are on the same site attached, but separate from, the Auditorium (theatre) even though they are all used for some functions. Check out their website for a great interior shot. Ironically, the Shrine Auditorium was originally used in the same way that the old restored movie palaces are being used now.
The Fox Theatre in Atlanta was built by the Shriners as part of their area headquarters the same as the Shrine Auditorium in LA but for financial reasons the theatre part was leased to William Fox and is classed as a movie palace today. Seems to me the Shrine Auditorium would also be in the movie palace category if it had been taken over by a theatre chain. Its still a regular theatre, no matter who owns it, which has been in continual use as a theatre since 1920. The Fox in Detroit is used for car shows occasionally and even the stage at the venerable old RCMH has been used for basketball games. I don’t see that as being any different than how the Shrine Auditorium has been used. Gray definately applies to these discussions on theatres!
Hamiltonmark:
You seem pretty clued in on the Hamilton theatre history….do we need to list the old Downtown theatre on James Street between King and the Tivoli? I remember going there in 1961. At that time it had certainly seen better days. I suspect it had another name when it was first opened. As I recall it was a good sized theatre with about 15 or 16 hundred seats.
If we are considering which North American theatre that showed movies was the largest in terms of seats, then that would surely go to the Shrine Auditorium in Los Angeles. At 6300 hundred (real) seats it is bigger than RCMH and the Roxy. Andy Stamatin, the present Operations Manager tells me the auditorium was used as a movie theatre many times in the past and still shows movies occasionally with a temporary projection room built in the first part of the balcony.
The Fox in Detroit does not show movies any more so is that still a movie palace or just a theatre?
So as Jim says, defining a movie palace is now a “gray area."
Personally it makes no difference to me. I am just glad there are still some grand old theatres left to enjoy.
During some of our earlier posts on presentation at Radio City Music Hall and other theatres on this page, I referred to the Dorchester Cinema in Hull, England.
I have now added the Dorchester to Cinema Treasures. I have an exterior photo before it was demolished which will be submitted once the Add a Photo page is working again. I also hope to have some interior shots sent to me soon and I will make those available to anyone who wants to see them.
The Dorchester was part of Hull Cinemas, a local chain. The 2000 seat Cecil in Hull built in 1955, which is also listed here on Cinema Treasures, was part of the same chain.
There is a video “Full House” available from Valerie’s UK Videos, which shows some brief shots of the entrance, balcony and projection room at the Dorchester. Most of the video is of the Cecil and its projection room. It brought back lots of memories for me. I visited both cinemas in 1960 as a teenager when I was a part-time projectionist at another cinema in the Hull area.
Tim Elliot wrote: “Those really were "events”.“
And don’t forget the James Bond movies that opened in the 60’s around Christmas at (IMHO) the best movie theatre in Toronto….and Canada…the Odeon Carlton (called the"Showplace of the Dominion” when it opened in 1948). The line ups were incredible. The coloured light changes and fantastic stage curtains in the 2500 seat theatre, the cheers and clapping when the organ came up out of the floor with the great Colin Corbett.
When the wreckers ball took care of the Carlton, it also took care of a good part of the great movie experiences Toronto had to offer back then.
I would also liked to have seen how the Rivoli presented its movies back in those days. Sounds like it was quite an experience too.
Box Office Bill wrote: “but the angle of projection from the upper balcony was so sharp that the moving fabric were cast deep shadows over the screen."
Bill: The projection room at the Roxy was set in the front of the balcony because Roxy himself thought a "head-on” throw with no angle gave a better picture quality. Could you clarify? Was there another projection booth?
I chatted a while ago with a former New York projection equipment installer who said this “head-on” throw in the Roxy caused shadows. He also said it caused ghosting inside the lens which sometimes affected what was seen on the screen.
Was this contour arrangement better than the original huge curtains? I always thought there was nothing like seeing a big curtain the width of the stage, opening and closing a movie.
I have exterior and interior photos of the Dorchester to add to this listing but the website is still not accepting any more photos for a while. I’ll add them as soon as the “Add photo” function is working again.
mjc (Martin Chapman).
Richard:
Many thanks for passing all this valuable information.
Vito wrote: “In fact, Mr.Newman did not write the CinemaScope extension until a few months later. Does anyone remember which film was the first to present the Fox Fanfare with the CinemaScope extension? Come on now Warren, I know you know the answer to this one.”
OK Vito……..I can’t wait for Warren to reply. The suspense is killing me.
Was the first Fox fanfare with the extension “River of No Return”? And was it written by Alfred Newman or Lionel Newman?
I would have liked to have seen more details and photo’s in Ben Hall’s book about the projection booth at the Roxy. It was located in the front of the balcony, eliminating the long throw that resulted from booths that were over the top of the rear balcony.
Maybe Vito or others could weigh in here. What did the projectionists think of this arrangement, which Hall calls an “innovation”? I was in contact with a former theatre chain technician who thought the “head on” projection at the Roxy created other problems such as ghosting from the lenses.
Also Hall refers to a staff of 16 projectionists on various shifts which was unheard of anywhere else. How does that compare to RCMH? Was the movie presentation more complex at the Roxy?
I would have liked to have seen more details and photo’s in Ben Hall’s book about the projection booth at the Roxy. It was located in the front of the balcony, eliminating the long throw that resulted from booths that were over the top of the rear balcony.
Maybe Vito or others could weigh in here. What did the projectionists think of this arrangement, which Hall calls an “innovation”? I was in contact with a former theatre chain technician who thought the “head on” projection at the Roxy created other problems such as ghosting from the lenses.
Also Hall refers to a staff of 16 projectionists on various shifts which was unheard of anywhere else. How does that compare to RCMH? Was the movie presentation more complex at the Roxy?
I would like to add a brief word of praise for the projectionists who had to show the same movie for more than a year.
In one theatre where “South Pacific” played for months, I remember watching the projectionists using the dialogue, not the cue dots, for some of the changeovers to give themselves a challenge! Other than the overture and intermission, it was likely a long shift.
Mark:I checked out the sites you have mentioned.Maybe these comments should be on the Granada site but neither of the theatres are what I remember as the Downtown.
The next time I am in the Hamilton area I will check the clippings file in the Library on the Downtown/Granada to make sure it is what I remember as the Downtown. I want to make sure my mind is still intact.
I posted a couple of photos of the Fox, Detroit that I took about 4 years ago on the Cinephoto UK website. One is of the lobby and the other shows part of the auditorium exterior:
View link
I also took a couple of interior photo’s that don’t reproduce too well. I was almost thrown out of the place for taking them but what the heck…it was worth the aggravation to have my own pictures!
The Detroit Fox is a marvel to see. I make a point of visiting there from Canada once every year or so just to be overwhelmed.
Some good interior photos of the Rivoli taken when it was being converted to 70mm at this website: View link
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I don’t think the Atlantic City Convention Hall could be classed as theatre for the purposes of Cinema Treasures. It is a conventional hall with a stage. The Chicago Auditorium is more of a concert hall, like the old Massey Hall in Toronto. But neither one of these buildings would qualify for inclusion on Cinema Treasures as classic movie theatres. I brought up the Shrine Auditorium as a gray-area case simply because it is a true theatre which has showed movies….but was never primarily a movie theatre.
Mark: You are correct re the history of the Grand Opera House/Granada/Downtown. I was in contact with a librarian at the Hamilton Public Library. I was not aware of the history of the Downtown back in 1961 and did not see any reference to it under that name in the Granada listing.
The Tivoli theatre opened in 1908 in the carriage factory which was built in 1875. When the Princess Theatre, part of the same site, was closed in 1923 it became part of the lobby of the Tivoli. The front of the Tivoli today is the old front of the carriage factory.
This information comes from an August 20/2004 report from the city’s Planning and Development Dept.
The Princess was also the Wonderland in 1908, the Colonial from 1910-1912 and the Princess from 1913-1923.This information comes from a history of the Tivoli contained in a 2004 City By-law to demolish the old carriage factory portion of the Tivoli Theatre site.
The history of the Lyric/Century is contained in a 2001 city by-law to designate the building for the Ontario Heritage Foundation. You can read it at:
www.city.hamilton.on.ca/Clerk/by-laws/2001/01-225.pdf
Interesting to note that the Lyric/Century theatre was the largest in Hamilton with over 2000 seats when it opened in 1913 and the first in Canada with year round air conditioning when it was re-modeled in 1940.
Mark:
Its at:
View link
Its just an entry though…no details.
Jim:……you are a true gentleman sir.
Mark: Good work…according to Enright’s listing the Downtown seated around 860. I thought it was a little bigger than that but its been over 40 years. I do remember it was quite stark inside, definately not an opera house interior. There may have been a balcony which was closed off when I went there. It was north of King…..not south as I said earlier.
I think we still need to fix the correct names and the address for the record. The Downtown was definately not next to the Tivoli. It would be nice to get everything straightened away…..future theatre buffs will thank us!
Mark:
The plot thickens. Mike Rivest’s site, Enrights Ontario theatre sites and Cinema Tour all list the Downtown. If it was the Granada or Savoy (it could have been either) the demolition dates don’t jibe. I was in the Downtown in 1961. It was a tall dark brick building on a corner not far from where York Boulevard joins James St South. It definately was not next to the Tivoli. Maybe you could check with the Hamilton Public Library clipping section. I tried through the net but had no luck.
I also believe the Grand Opera House was closer to the downtown area on Gore Street and not next to the Tivoli but I could be wrong.
Jim: with respect….. I would like to make the case that the Shrine Auditorium is definately a theatre, unlike the Atlantic City Convention Hall. The Shrine Auditorium, despite its name, is a conventional theatre with a large balcony, that has been used since 1920 for movies, opera, stage and TV shows, concerts etc. It may not have been solely a classic movie theatre but is still advertised as North America’s largest theatre. I think the name “auditorium” confuses the issue. Perhaps they should have called it the Shrine Theatre. The Shrine headquarters and convention hall are on the same site attached, but separate from, the Auditorium (theatre) even though they are all used for some functions. Check out their website for a great interior shot. Ironically, the Shrine Auditorium was originally used in the same way that the old restored movie palaces are being used now.
The Fox Theatre in Atlanta was built by the Shriners as part of their area headquarters the same as the Shrine Auditorium in LA but for financial reasons the theatre part was leased to William Fox and is classed as a movie palace today. Seems to me the Shrine Auditorium would also be in the movie palace category if it had been taken over by a theatre chain. Its still a regular theatre, no matter who owns it, which has been in continual use as a theatre since 1920. The Fox in Detroit is used for car shows occasionally and even the stage at the venerable old RCMH has been used for basketball games. I don’t see that as being any different than how the Shrine Auditorium has been used. Gray definately applies to these discussions on theatres!
Hamiltonmark:
You seem pretty clued in on the Hamilton theatre history….do we need to list the old Downtown theatre on James Street between King and the Tivoli? I remember going there in 1961. At that time it had certainly seen better days. I suspect it had another name when it was first opened. As I recall it was a good sized theatre with about 15 or 16 hundred seats.
If we are considering which North American theatre that showed movies was the largest in terms of seats, then that would surely go to the Shrine Auditorium in Los Angeles. At 6300 hundred (real) seats it is bigger than RCMH and the Roxy. Andy Stamatin, the present Operations Manager tells me the auditorium was used as a movie theatre many times in the past and still shows movies occasionally with a temporary projection room built in the first part of the balcony.
The Fox in Detroit does not show movies any more so is that still a movie palace or just a theatre?
So as Jim says, defining a movie palace is now a “gray area."
Personally it makes no difference to me. I am just glad there are still some grand old theatres left to enjoy.
During some of our earlier posts on presentation at Radio City Music Hall and other theatres on this page, I referred to the Dorchester Cinema in Hull, England.
I have now added the Dorchester to Cinema Treasures. I have an exterior photo before it was demolished which will be submitted once the Add a Photo page is working again. I also hope to have some interior shots sent to me soon and I will make those available to anyone who wants to see them.
The Dorchester was part of Hull Cinemas, a local chain. The 2000 seat Cecil in Hull built in 1955, which is also listed here on Cinema Treasures, was part of the same chain.
There is a video “Full House” available from Valerie’s UK Videos, which shows some brief shots of the entrance, balcony and projection room at the Dorchester. Most of the video is of the Cecil and its projection room. It brought back lots of memories for me. I visited both cinemas in 1960 as a teenager when I was a part-time projectionist at another cinema in the Hull area.